Town Hall with Women, Youth, and Civil Society
Townhall
Hillary Rodham Clinton
Secretary of State
Ismaili Center
Dushanbe, Tajikistan
October 22, 2011
SECRETARY CLINTON:
Thank you. Please let me tell you how excited I am to be here with you.
Sher, thank you for that introduction and for being our moderator
today. I wanted to thank the Aga Khan Development Network for supporting
this forum and working so hard to create opportunities for the Tajik
people and the Dushanbe Ismaili Center. Thanks to you for hosting us in
this truly beautiful, impressive building here.
And I am
delighted, to look out and see this large audience of people who are
working to improve the lives of your fellow citizens and create a better
future for your country. And I’m grateful to you because each and every
one of you is helping to build a more prosperous, democratic future for
Tajikistan. And it is exciting for me to see men and women gather
together to make it here, and the future must include all citizens. A
vibrant society that supports inclusive opportunity, prosperity, and
rights for everyone knows that you will be more successful. And I’m also
pleased to see so many young people because building that future is
really all about you.
So I’m here mostly to listen. This is my
first trip to Tajikistan. I have long looked forward to coming here. And
I want to hear your views, your opinions and suggestions about the
future of your country and the wider region. I know that Tajikistan is
at a critical moment in its history. The effects of post-Soviet rule can
still be felt. But there is such a feeling of hope and progress. And
this year, with the help of several Tajik NGOs and the International
Organization on Migration, I saw a very impressive report about the
efforts of stopping the traffickers who have forced women and children
to work in the cotton fields (inaudible). I’m also told that rural
projects are exercising their right to own land and choose which crops
to grow. And farmers may include supply chains and connections to
capital end markets.
And more people in rural communities have
access to safe drinking water. Pregnant women and families with young
children are receiving better healthcare, and the polio outbreak from
last year has subsided. We are very pleased and proud to support you in
all of these and other efforts. Since establishing diplomatic relations
in 1992, the United States has provided nearly $1 billion in assistance.
But we know very well that it’s not what comes from the outside, but
what comes from the inside – what comes from the hearts and minds and
hard work of the people themselves. And we strongly support the right of
Tajik citizens to receive a decent education, to own land, to enjoy a
free and independent media, participate equally in the political
process, and enjoy all of the universal rights that should be available
to any man or woman. And we strongly believe that fundamental freedoms,
including religious freedom, should be protected for all people, young
and old, men and women.
So I’m looking forward to our meeting here
today, I’m looking forward to meeting with the president and government
officials later today. We want to talk in both settings about the
future and what kinds of actions are necessary so that Tajikistan will
have that better future which you deserve. We want some help increasing
economic opportunity here in Tajikistan so that so many of your people
do not have to leave home to find work, that there can be a flourishing
economy right here.
Now we know that won’t happen overnight.
Barriers to trade have to come down, more investment must be attracted.
So the United States is supporting what we are calling the New Silk
Road, a network of transit and trade connections to open up new markets
for raw materials and energy and agricultural products that can be
traded among all nations in the region. For example, we’re working with
the Aga Khan Development Network to support clear energy to build an
integrated energy grid along the Tajik-Afghan border. We want to spur
growth, create jobs, invigorate the private sector, and fully integrate
Tajikistan into the South and Central Asian economy.
In order to
take advantage of these opportunities, there does need to be changes in
the laws – changes to attract investment, a strong commitment to human
rights and rule of law, to tackle corruption and abuse, to establish an
independent judiciary, and other steps that will truly benefit the
people of your country. And of course, women have to be at the table,
part of the solution. And we know that women, because of the very heavy
migration of men out of your country seeking work, we know that women
represent more than half the population here in Tajikistan. And so we
fully support women’s full participation. So I want you to know that you
can count on America’s support as you take on all of these challenges,
and we will try to be a good partner and a good friend.
So now, let me join Sher and start hearing from all of you. Thank you very much for being here. (Applause.)
QUESTION:
(Via interpreter) I know that you were in Istanbul this week. I know
that we share our – both of our common languages and culture, and we
have varied interests (inaudible). What is next for (inaudible)?
SECRETARY CLINTON:
Well, I think that that is a question that everyone in the region wants
to know the answer to, and I would start by saying I think what happens
next depends, yes, of course, on the Afghans, but it also depends upon
the region as a whole. We are working with Afghanistan to transition
security so that as troops from the United States and 48 other countries
leave Afghanistan, the Afghans themselves will slowly but steadily take
on the responsibility of defending and protecting their country. The
United States is working on a strategic partnership agreement with
Afghanistan so that they know we’re not leaving and abandoning them,
that we won’t have an enduring presence in Afghanistan. We are working
to help promote an Afghan-led peace process. There will be many of the
insurgents and the fighters who wish to reintegrate into society, but
there will be others who won’t, and we now need to begin to sort out who
is who in that process.
But the idea that I briefly mentioned of a
New Silk Road is very important to Afghanistan because instead of
Afghanistan being the crossroads for terrorism and insurgency and so
much pain and suffering over 30 years, we want Afghanistan to be at the
crossroads of economic opportunities going north and south and east and
west, which is why it’s so critical to more fully integrate the
autonomies of the countries in this region in South and Central Asia.
I
think you know very well that Afghanistan has historically been a place
where many different countries and nationalities have vied for power
and influence because of the strategic location. And the Afghan people
have paid a terrible price, but their neighbors have also suffered from
the ongoing conflict in Afghanistan. So we’re looking for the support of
the governments and the people in the region to try to promote those
Afghans who want peace, security, stability. And that can come apart –
come across over time if we have a plan.
So for example, there
will be a regional meeting in Istanbul in about a week, 10 days, to
bring the entire region together to start planning what is the region
going to do to try to prevent the conflict from continuing or spilling
over borders. So this is a big task ahead of us, but you’re right to ask
it because it is key to the kind of progress that can be made not only
there, but here and elsewhere.
MODERATOR: Thank you very much, Madam Secretary. (In Russian and Tajik)
QUESTION: (Inaudible.)
SECRETARY CLINTON: May I ask and perhaps share an email, what kind of internet access you currently have?
QUESTION: (Inaudible.)
SECRETARY CLINTON:
Does that make sense everybody? I think the question is really whether
there can be a good dialogue between the government and NGOs, and
whether there can be freedom of expression and opinion by the people of
the country, particularly young people, because you referenced the
activities of the so-called Arab Spring, and young people were certainly
in the forefront.
Well, I can only tell you that I believe
strongly that NGOs that are responsible and committed to the forum can
play an important role and should be permitted to do so in every
society. What is often unfortunate is that governments worry that NGOs
have other agendas, that they are funded by outside interests, that they
are truly trying to undermine or subvert the stability, the peace, the
future of the country. And I think that that is a missed opportunity, so
I would like to encourage the government here, as I do whenever I
travel around the world, to have a dialogue with the NGO community.
There are a lot of very experienced, accomplished people who care deeply
about fixing education or healthcare or the environment or protected
human rights, and they should have the opportunity to be heard.
But
I know that that is an evolutionary process. It will take time. But I
will certainly raise this with high government officials because I think
that you’re at a critical moment in history, and I think Tajikistan
needs all of the engagement and intelligence of all of its citizens,
particularly its young people. And so I will certainly make that point.
MODERATOR: Next question.
QUESTION: (Inaudible?)
SECRETARY CLINTON:
Well, let me start by saying that the United States strongly objected
to the events in Andijan that we were very much on record, that we made
our views known, and that we have had ongoing discussions with the
Government of Uzbekistan that I will continue when I go there tonight –
raising issues of human rights, of rule of law, the kind of fundamental
freedoms that the United States strongly supports.
You quoted
President Kennedy, and you will recall that when he was president, as
with all of our presidents, they met with and tried to work with the
Soviet Union despite very strong disagreements about policy, because we
believe it is important to try to continue to exercise whatever
influence we can on behalf of people who themselves may not have a
voice. So when I go to speak with many leaders around the world –
because you know there are many countries that have taken severe actions
against the rights of their citizens in history; this is nothing new –
but today, everybody knows about it. There is no way to keep it secret.
It will be on the internet. When President Asad in Syria sends his
security forces to kill peaceful demonstrators, they can’t hide that
anymore.
So whether it is in this region or elsewhere, we do
everything possible to make a strong case for those who cannot get in
the doors and talk to their leaders. And I can assure you that we have
raised all of the human rights issues in Uzbekistan and elsewhere. But
we have also learned over the years that after a while, after you’ve
made your strong objections, if you have no contact, you have no
influence. And other countries will feel that vacuum who do not care
about human rights, who do not care about fundamental freedoms. So
despite the challenge, I would rather be having meetings raising these
uncomfortable issues, pressing for change, than to be totally outside
and let others come in that only want commercial, political, and other
advantages.
So it’s a balancing act, but we try on an ongoing
basis to get our message across and give heart to people inside
countries that there are those outside who care about what is happening
to them and are advocating for change on their behalf.
MODERATOR: (Inaudible.)
QUESTION: (Inaudible.)
SECRETARY CLINTON:
Well, I will certainly do that because we care deeply about it. I
cannot promise you that there will be some immediate change. You know
that change in many of these situations takes time and effort, but I
will certainly raise those issues, as I have before.
MODERATOR: (Inaudible.)
QUESTION: (Inaudible.)
SECRETARY CLINTON:
I think that both Russia and the United States have interests in
Central Asia. Obviously, you have a long history with Russia and you
know that there are many important relationships that continue to this
day that are going to be important in the future. The United States
believes that we also have a role to play in Central Asia. We strongly
support the trend toward greater openness, democratization, free market
economies, because what we have found over many, many years everywhere
in the world is that there are certain ingredients that, if in place,
are more likely to benefit the people than other choices about how to
organize the government and the economy.
So we are clearly trying
to convey our strong support for the reforms that many of you represent.
In Afghanistan, the relationship between Russia and the United States
is very positive. Russia has been quite helpful in the last several
years, certainly since I’ve been Secretary of State, in supporting the
efforts of the NATO international forces to be able to move supplies
into and out of Afghanistan from the north. Russia has been an active
participant in the many meetings that have been held about the future of
Afghanistan. So I think Russia is playing a positive role and
cooperating certainly with us, with the Afghans and others, to try to
find a way to bring this conflict to a close.
QUESTION: (Inaudible.)
SECRETARY CLINTON:
Well, you are accurate in pointing out that after 9/11, our visa
process became much more difficult – I fully recognize that – for
students and workers, professionals, and others. It has, I think, gotten
somewhat better because our security measures have improved. But it is
still a problem and we are working very hard to try to streamline it.
This is a question I get asked all over the world, from Brazil to China
to Tajikistan. So I’m well aware of the challenge, and I can assure you
of trying to make it better.
I also very much appreciate your
question about Afghan women. I met with a group of Afghan women when I
was in Kabul, women that I’ve known now for 10 years, have worked with
in Afghanistan, in the United States, around the world on behalf of
improving the lives of Afghan women. I wanted to meet with them to
assure them personally I would do everything I can to make sure that no
one turns the clock back on them; that they will have the right to go to
school, which the Taliban denied them; they will have the right to
work, which the Taliban denied them; they will have the right to have
healthcare, which the Taliban denied them. Because I think it’s
absolutely essential; there cannot be a peace that sacrifices the rights
of women. You will not have a sustainable peace and it would be wrong.
Now
I cannot predict to you what any government of any country will do in
five years, 10 years, or 20 years. But certainly, any government that
comes about, has any process that the United States is part of must
agree to renounce violence, renounce al-Qaida, and abide by the laws and
constitution of Afghanistan, including the protections for ethnic
minorities such as Tajiks and Uzbeks and (inaudible) and others, and the
rights of women.
So that is our redline. We are absolutely clear
on that. But eventually, the future of Afghanistan will be in the hands
of Afghans, and what we are hoping is that the changes that have begun
will strengthen the institutions enough and provide a base for many
elements within Afghan society to stand up for their rights and not be
intimidating and not permit any reversal of the gains that have been
made. But your question is one that I think about all the time, because
we cannot afford to let that happen in good conscience.
MODERATOR: (Inaudible.)
QUESTION: (Inaudible.)
SECRETARY CLINTON:
Well, first, I am very pleased you had a chance to go to the United
States because the United States, from its very beginning, has respected
and honored religion. But we have a separation between religion and our
state. So from the very beginning, we have said that the state cannot
establish a religion. And we believe strongly that true religion, true
faith and beliefs, should come from the inside, not imposed from the
outside. And so if you’re imposing them from the outside, you have to
use state power to do that. And we do not believe in that.
So the
problem for many societies in transition who have a predominant religion
in their society, which they respect and cherish because it is their
national tradition, a particular religious orientation, is how to make
sure you do not impose religion but you create space so that religion
can operate. I think this is one of the biggest challenges facing many
democracies in transition and many Muslim-majority countries, because
there’s a new opportunity to try to define what one means by democracy,
civil society, and human rights, including the right to have your own
religion.
I believe that everyone is entitled to practice their
faith, but no one is entitled to impose their faith on someone else. So
how do you balance those two very strong principles? That’s what you
have to work out in this country and so many other countries.
Religion
has caused so many wars over so many centuries. I’m a Christian, and
we’ve had so many wars, until recent times. If you were one kind of
Christian you were fighting against another kind of Christian. I worked
for many years to help resolve the conflict in Northern Ireland. It was
between two different kinds of Christians. It wasn’t anybody else; it
was Catholics and Protestants. And yet they were fighting each other and
they were living in different neighborhoods and they were rejecting the
rights of one or the other to have full citizenship. And it took years,
but finally that conflict has been resolved.
But I see that all
over the world now. Look what’s happening in Egypt: 10 percent of
Egyptians are Coptic Christians. They’ve lived in Egypt for thousands of
years. And now there are different kinds of pressures on them. In
Pakistan, you have different sects of Muslims killing each other. In
Iraq, you have Sunni and Shia. So I mean, you go around the world and
you say to yourself something that should connect you to God should not
cause you to try to kill, intimidate, coerce, or oppress your neighbor. I
mean, that is fundamental to every religion. And yet we have seen
historically that’s not what has happened.
So your question is a
very important one. There should be freedom of religion but no coercion
or oppression. And those who are religious should respect the rights of
other religions and, in our country, even those who have no religion.
And I can only hope that you can work out that balance. I know that
there is a lot of concern in Tajikistan about certain people coming and
saying that their way is the only way, and if you don’t do what we say,
if you don’t dress the way we dress, if you don’t pray the way we pray,
then you’re not religious. And I understand that. It’s a very serious
threat.
But you don’t want that to happen, but you also don’t want
to deny the right for people to be religious. So those of you who are
religious, who care about the important role that religion can play in
an individual’s life and in a society, I hope will continue to study how
you can have religion without coercion, or you can have an openness
like what you saw in my country where – I live in New York. I think we
have every religion that is practiced anywhere on earth in New York. And
sometimes there’s a little bit of friction and you rub up against
people, but generally, millions of people worship on Friday, worship on
Saturday, worship on Sunday, in the way that they have been raised or
chose to believe. And that’s what I would hope for everyone.
QUESTION: (Inaudible.) (Applause.)
SECRETARY CLINTON:
Well, the short answer is yes. But on a serious note, I would say that
it’s very important for men and women to respect one another and to
support one another and to encourage each other to live up to his or her
God-given potential. And I am very fortunate in having a husband who
strongly supports my work, strongly supports the work of our daughter,
as her husband now does. And I am aware that in too many places in too
many parts of the world, that is not the case, that women are not given
the respect or the rights – because you need both – that they should
have.
So I’m hoping that – I met a number of very active, dynamic
Tajik women before I came in who have been part of economic and social
meetings in Bishkek and elsewhere. And I’m hoping that every society
will move toward recognizing that you can make so much more progress if
the entire population is included. And if you leave half of your
population out, you cannot make the economic, political, and social
progress that you should be able to.
So on an individual level,
it’s important to have that support. And on a national level, it’s
important to have that support. And I would hope that would be the case
here in Tajikistan as well as elsewhere.
QUESTION: (Inaudible.)
SECRETARY CLINTON:
Well, first, I don’t know the specifics of what you’re referring to,
but I know that Russia sells a lot of fuel to NATO. So I think there
might be something in that. And I think it’s important that you do seek
out greater foreign investment to diversify your economy. And I would
say that there are several things you’ll have to do, which is to: open
up the economy; make sure your laws are protecting contract rights so
that international firms feel comfortable and safe investing in
Tajikistan; tackle corruption, because that’s a big tax on any business
whether it’s inside or outside or from outside the country; and look to
have a concerted effort to reach out to international businesses so that
more people know what we have to offer here.
And I think that
certainly our Embassy can provide any of the NGOs who are working on
economic development our assessment of what it would take to attract
investment and what it would take to attract an ExImBank investment. We
will certainly convey the interest you’ve expressed to the Export-Import
Bank, and they can work with our Embassy to explain what they look for
and what they would need to see before they could make such investment.
I
would like to see Tajikistan attract much more foreign investment than
you have thus far. And I think you’re going to have to deal with some of
the internal legal and regulatory changes that are necessary. But there
is a lot of incentive for you to do that, because then you could
diversify your economy. So I would hope that that could be on the agenda
with one of the NGOs here.
QUESTION: (Inaudible.) (Applause.)
SECRETARY CLINTON:
That was a popular question. (Laugher.) First let me say I am aware of
your energy challenges in the winter. You apparently have a surplus of
electricity in the summer when your hydro power is at full capacity; but
obviously, in the winter hydro power is not as efficient, so therefore
you have shortages in winter. And I know that since the 1970s,
Tajikistan has been looking at this very large dam project. And the
World Bank is currently doing two studies to try to reach an independent
judgment, uninfluenced by any of your neighbors, as to whether this is
the right best investment for Tajikistan.
I don’t know how the
studies are going to come out by the World Bank. I am not, by any means,
an expert in dam building or hydro power. But I will say this: That
what we have seen in the last several years is that a lot of major dam
projects around the world that have been in blueprints and not yet built
for many years are not being built. Why? Because what was an efficient
way to produce power in the 1970s or ‘80s is no longer so efficient. And
therefore, looking at different ways of producing power, more
decentralized, diversified power sources, is what many countries are now
doing.
And so again, when the World Bank comes out with its
study, it is not going to be a final word for your government, but I
think the government should pay attention to what the World Bank says
because this is a huge project. If it’s not doing to deliver what you
need, then you should look at the expert advice from independent sources
about what would work. There are other energy opportunities that I
think experts have talked about in Tajikistan and there are ways of
storing energy and producing energy that are more efficient with today’s
technology than a large dam. So I don’t know, as I said, what the
outcome is going to be. But it is important to have an independent
assessment.
And the final thing I would say is that there are lots
of really accomplished independent experts in the world today who are
working with many countries. Because a lot of the big projects of the
past are no longer efficient, and so we don’t want countries like
Tajikistan or anywhere else to follow a path that in five or ten years
you find out isn’t delivering what you need it to deliver.
So I
will leave it at that. We’ll wait to see what the World Bank has to say,
because I think they’re the – they’re doing a very thorough study, from
what I’m told. But I think you should separate out the opposition to
the project from Uzbekistan. Sometimes people do things just because
your neighbor doesn’t want you to do it. (Laughter.) Your neighbor says,
“Don’t cut down that tree.” You go and cut down the tree because you
don’t like your neighbor. And then you wake up the next morning
thinking, you know, I liked that tree, I’m sorry it’s gone.
So I
would just urge you not to make a decision because somebody you don’t
like doesn’t like it. I would make a decision based on what’s best for
Tajikistan. And that’s the smartest way to don’t get mad, get even.
Right? So I would hope that’s what your country does. (Applause.)
QUESTION: (Inaudible.) (Applause.)
SECRETARY CLINTON:
Well, I think you’re asking for more seminars and personal development
kind of programs, and we’ll certainly talk to our Embassy about doing
that. I think you’re right that fundamental change often has to come on
an individual basis and from within, but I see it as both a bottom-up
individual process and a top-down social-governmental process. Because
if you don’t have a government that respects the individual and wants to
unleash those powers within the individual so that you can pursue your
business interests and your political interests or whatever, then you
may not get the full benefit from the individual effort.
So I
think you have to have both an emphasis on the individual training, as
you’ve pointed out, and enabling from societies and from the government.
It is not just the government. I mean, it’s in society – and I’ll go
back to women – if in society certain groups of people within society
believe that girls shouldn’t be educated or women shouldn’t be allowed
to vote or participate, then no matter how well developed an individual
is, that person is barred from participating. So it has to be bottom-up,
top-down to create that really broad field of opportunity for
everybody.
MODERATOR: (Inaudible.)
QUESTION: (Inaudible.)
SECRETARY CLINTON:
Well, first, I haven’t yet had my meetings with the government. I came
here first because I wanted to hear from you, and I will carry many of
your concerns and questions with me when I go to meet with the
government.
I think your second question is obviously important to
me, because I think that women should be given the opportunity to serve
in government as officials, as ministers. Many of you probably may
remember, I ran for president because I think women should compete for
all positions in the political system of their countries. And we had a
very hard-fought election, and President Obama defeated me, but I then
was proud to go to work for him when he asked me to serve in this
government.
So I think that it is – it should be a question of
personal choice. Most men and most women are never going to be involved
in politics; it doesn’t appeal to them, they’re not interested in it,
they don’t think that it’s their best use. But if you do want to
participate in government and politics, you should be chosen on your
merit, you should be selected because you have something to contribute,
you’re a hard worker, you have some technical expertise, you’re a
well-organized person. And that should be equally true for men and
women.
So I would hope that more women will find it possible to
participate in the government here and throughout the region. Everywhere
I go in the region, I raise this issue. Yesterday, I had a long meeting
in Pakistan with the new woman foreign minister, a young woman,
well-qualified, very impressive. And here she is in a country where
that’s not always expected. But it was – Pakistan had had a woman prime
minister, it was India that had a woman prime minister, it’s Bangladesh
which now has a woman prime minister.
So I think that there are
many reasons why women should be given a chance to participate and be
judged on whether or not they do a good job, just like a man would be.
MODERATOR: (Inaudible.)
SECRETARY CLINTON: Thank you very much. (Applause.)
